Castes and Vocations

[Quis Ut Deus? 187]

To cherry-pick a bit of your post, concerning the castes of scholar and warrior. In The Crisis of the Modern World, Rene Guenon writes: “…the higher cannot proceed from the lower, because the greater cannot proceed from the lesser…” In this context, this means that the superior (Fascist) man must by nature be a scholar ('the greater', the first caste), and after that he may be a warrior, even though he does not have the nature of a warrior. It is not possible for warriors by nature to become transcendent in the same way as scholars by nature may do so because "caste, in its traditional meaning, is nothing other than individual nature, with the whole array of special aptitudes that this carries with it and that predisposes each man to the fulfillment of one or another particular function," which you mentioned when you said: "Not everyone are cut out to be Warriors and not everyone should be". 

 

Though Man may by nature be a scholar, he can be a warrior if, as you were saying in regards to the Greater War, he fights for spiritual principles. Guenon has this to say: “This is why – we say again – a true understanding can come only from above and not from below; and this should be taken in a twofold sense: the work must begin from what is highest, that is, from principles, and descend gradually to the various orders of application, always keeping rigorously to the hierarchical dependence that exists between them; and it must also of necessity be the work of an elite in the truest and most complete meaning of this word: by this we mean exclusively an intellectual elite, and in reality, there can be no other.” 

[Александр Славрос 8,499]

I'll have to introduce some corrections.

 

First off, you're proposing a premise that Fascists are only members of the one caste, that is wrong. Fascists are those who fight against the Modern World for the restoration of Truth in temporal matters, but they can come from any spiritual caste (or even race for that matter so long as they fight for the restoration of Truth regarding their status in the racial hierarchy, regardless if they are somewhere up or somewhere down on it). A serf can be Fascist so long as he upholds his nature and Truth and enforces it towards others, like how in ancient caste societies if someone from the superior castes tried to do the work of the lower castes he'd be shunned as a pariah not just by those of the superior caste, that is to say his equals, but also by those in the inferior castes, who would see it as an affront to themselves as much as to the whole Truth that someone is attempting to act however he wants regardless of his Truth, because that makes him a liar in the deeper sense of the word. Fascism is merely the latest term used to describe our struggle and those who want to adhere to the Truth. Fascism does promote the creation of the superior man, but that comes about from adherence to one's Truth (including racial truth) rather than from making all men into scholars.

 

That being the other problem with your premise - you imply that the only fascists in a fascist society would be the ruling class or you're implying that everyone would be brought into the fold of the superior caste which would be another affront to the Truth as a form of egalitarianism.

 

Next, nowhere is it implied that warriors cannot transcend, because the relationship of the upper castes is very close and they are the only castes imbued with spiritual force behind them, if anything the real difference seems to be that the superior caste is entirely comprised of people who had already achieved transcendence whereas the warrior caste is people with the unrealized potential for that, unless you're implying there being different types of transcendence, which I have also not seen any evidence to, Transcendence is only described as either complete or incomplete, but not different. There are different paths to transcendence but they are given in those two archetypes which in themselves symbolize the two higher castes.

 

None of this denies that the higher cannot proceed from below which is indeed one of the central pillars of our worldview, however the complete relationship of the Divine Royalty and Warrior castes is not so cut and dry.

[Quis Ut Deus? 187]

By scholars I mean those with knowledge of eternal spiritual principles (Truth), and my interpretation of fascism is that it is a manifestation of the Truth, and so fascists would be scholars in that sense.  

 

I was being too optimistic when I thought that a fascist society could exist with only the first and second castes, as obviously there can be no rulers without a ruled; a society couldn't exist if everyone was of the same or similar nature/caste. 

 

I was not implying that there are different kinds of transcendence, but that 'scholars' wield spiritual authority, while warriors wield temporal power, to use Guenon's terms. Guenon posits that temporal power is delegated by spiritual authority, essentially that the warrior castes (Kings and nobles) only hold power because the scholars and their spiritual authority allow them to.

 

Guenon has the idea, in light of the cyclic theory of the world, that the modern day revolt of the most inferior against the superior began when the Kshatriyas (warrior caste) revolted against the Brahmins (intellectual caste) in pre-history. “It is a question of a struggle for supremacy, a struggle invariably arising in the same manner: having first been subject to the spiritual authority, warriors, the holders of the temporal power, revolt against this authority and declare themselves independent of all superior power, even trying to subordinate to themselves the spiritual authority that they had originally recognised as the source of their own power, and finally seeking to turn the spiritual authority to the service of their own domination. This alone should suffice to show that in such a revolt there must be a reversal of normal relationships…” 

 

Guenon did not believe that Kshatriyas could transcend like Brahmins: “Those who are made for action are not made for pure knowledge, and in a society constituted on truly spiritual bases each person must fulfil the function for which he is really ‘qualified’; otherwise, all is confusion and disorder and no function is carried out as it should be – which is precisely the case today.” 

 

He believed that Kshatriyas had to rule temporally (materially, in government) as it is their nature to do, and do well, but the Brahmins are superior to them, as spiritual authority trumps temporal power: “…the royal [Kshatriya] function includes everything that in the social order constitutes what is properly referred to as the ‘government’…As for the priesthood [brahmin], its essential function is the conservation and transmission of the traditional doctrine, in which every regular social organisation finds its fundamental principles.” 

[Александр Славрос 8,499]

The essence of our argument is Guenon vs Evola really, and they do have their points of friction. But we're in sync on the  roles of the Royal Divinity and Warrior castes.

 

About Guenon's position as to the fall of the Royal Divinity, I rather agree with Evola's point here that the Royal Divinity caste first degenerated which led to the rise of the Warrior caste against it and after a while it degenerated as well leading to the uprising of the lower caste. It's the same process but not introduced via revolt as the origination of involution but via degeneracy. And if warriors couldn't transcend there wouldn't be assigned to them such spiritual dimensions as Hero and Heroic Life. Point is what they do upon transcendence.

 

And there is the point of the Ascetic, who lives a Unified Life and exists outside the Caste system like the Pariah, but the former exists above it while the latter exists below it: "Above the caste, being (the Ascetic) that becomes free from the form by renouncing the illusory center of human individuality; he turns towards the principle from which every "form" proceeds, not by faithfulness to his own nature and participation in the hierarchy by by direct action." If anything this seems to be referring to the Emperor of the World concept. Your own recent post on that issue seems to collaborate that idea.

 

But we're digressing here from the topic of War into the subject of Castes, so I'll split these posts into a separate topic.

 

Also, my old graph for the Caste system and Involutionary process. I'll be updating it sometime in the future but its good to have here as a potential discussion point as well.

 

Now this topic is dedicated to discussing the Caste System, the nature of the four castes, the two elements that exist outside the castes and the Vocations of men in a Caste based society.

[Quis Ut Deus? 187]

 

 

The essence of our argument is Guenon vs Evola really

True

 

 

 

if warriors couldn't transcend there wouldn't be assigned to them such spiritual dimensions as Hero and Heroic Life. Point is what they do upon transcendence.

Fair point

[☧☧☧ 486]

Now this topic is dedicated to discussing the Caste System, the nature of the four castes, the two elements that exist outside the castes and the Vocations of men in a Caste based society.

 

  What is most relevant in our day to day lives, and most relevant to the restoration of Traditional civilization, is realizing what caste we belong to. After that we can participate in using Fascism as a means to restore Tradition in Europe.

  The only thing I have to say relating to castes in principle, is that Guenon's Elite is essential, and that before its even formed, its future members need to engage in their interior work to prepare themselves to lead the restoration. All the posts and topics on the principles of the Traditional worldview are not only interesting, but informative and essential to preparing oneself for the interior work. I would just like to see something on how people are applying esoterism in their day to day lives, because I certainly have hardly anything to offer.

[Noidberg 4,080]

I am unsure exactly what others have written, but from how I see it man in himself is by default empty and will degenerate without anything higher. The Spiritual kings' source of ''spiritual fire'' is a divine source, ''The Sun'', which from they in turn create a structure of morals from. Eventually they degenerate and loose their connection to ''The Sun'', and the Warriors take over with these morals as a base. Spiritual still, able to inspire the lower classes into being productive rather than destructive. Eventually this fire die out from the warriors, and dead husks remain (see chivalry), the light of the sun turned into rays turns to a shadow. The merchants take over and rule with laws, inspired by this ''shadow''. Eventually the lower class get jealous and question them, eventually taking over and even then the shadow disappears. The shit hits the fan. 

 

What I find a bit interesting though is that there almost seems to be a difference between the ''black sun'' and ''the sun''. The ''sun'' representing something virile and constructive (to create a new order), Helios, while the black sun seems to be virile and destructive (to crush the degenerated one), Kalki. Or am I mistaken somehow?

[Krsnik 862]

There are at least a few examples of Kshatriya paths to enlightenment. The Bhagavad Gita is the best example, with Krishna laying out the path for Arjuna (and describing several others). There is also Buddha, who was warrior caste.

[Александр Славрос 8,499]

  What is most relevant in our day to day lives, and most relevant to the restoration of Traditional civilization, is realizing what caste we belong to. After that we can participate in using Fascism as a means to restore Tradition in Europe.

  The only thing I have to say relating to castes in principle, is that Guenon's Elite is essential, and that before its even formed, its future members need to engage in their interior work to prepare themselves to lead the restoration. All the posts and topics on the principles of the Traditional worldview are not only interesting, but informative and essential to preparing oneself for the interior work. I would just like to see something on how people are applying esoterism in their day to day lives, because I certainly have hardly anything to offer.

 

I'd say it works backwards to what you imply: we realize what our castes are by participating in the Fascist struggle which puts us to the test and we see where we excel and help the cause and where we are useless. Like Codreanu said, the new elite is born from the struggle, but not just the elite is born, everyone find their place in the castes. So rather than sitting and figuring out who you are in that regard and only afterwards participating in the Fascist struggle for restoring Truth, we should just jump into the fight and our utility, skills and talents come through and we fall into that role in the struggle and in the caste system.

 

And Guenon didn't come up with this, nor did Evola, they explained something that always existed in our worldview as one of its pillars, which is why its essential.

 

Not everyone can apply esotericism in their daily lives, those of the lower castes can't directly engage esoteric forces like the highest caste can, nor enjoy some relation with those forces like the Warrior caste, lower castes engage with esoteric forces by mundane activity that fulfills them and their true nature, which is the default state for everyone in our ideal society, upper castes just enjoy that and then some.

 

I am unsure exactly what others have written, but from how I see it man in himself is by default empty and will degenerate without anything higher. The Spiritual kings' source of ''spiritual fire'' is a divine source, ''The Sun'', which from they in turn create a structure of morals from. Eventually they degenerate and loose their connection to ''The Sun'', and the Warriors take over with these morals as a base. Spiritual still, able to inspire the lower classes into being productive rather than destructive. Eventually this fire die out from the warriors, and dead husks remain (see chivalry), the light of the sun turned into rays turns to a shadow. The merchants take over and rule with laws, inspired by this ''shadow''. Eventually the lower class get jealous and question them, eventually taking over and even then the shadow disappears. The shit hits the fan. 

 

What I find a bit interesting though is that there almost seems to be a difference between the ''black sun'' and ''the sun''. The ''sun'' representing something virile and constructive (to create a new order), Helios, while the black sun seems to be virile and destructive (to crush the degenerated one), Kalki. Or am I mistaken somehow?

 

Depends on what you mean by man in himself in this instance though I think where you're coming from and its presented in a quote in the chart above: "The Establishment of an objective and efficacious contact between them (world = material/physical reality; Superworld = spiritual/metaphysical reality) was the presupposition of any higher form of civilization and life." And as per the law that something great cannot come from something small there is the point of how great things can only degenerate into small things. However when it comes to Transcended people they don't rely on some external source because they have it internalized. It's most likely the disappearance of these men that leads to the start of decay.

 

And chivalry has a very particular meaning that today people don't know about so it may not be a fitting example to your point.

 

I myself don't know what's the exact origin of the Black Sun symbolism and how much the concept is associated with the Black Sun symbol, all I know is that in Alchemy the Black Sun is actually the material counterpart to the Golden Sun.

 

There are at least a few examples of Kshatriya paths to enlightenment. The Bhagavad Gita is the best example, with Krishna laying out the path for Arjuna (and describing several others). There is also Buddha, who was warrior caste.

 

There are only two paths if by enlightenment we mean transcendence, the Left and the Right hand paths, which appear in different names with different symbols and allegories but their actual nature remains the same for all of them. And Siddhārtha Gautama was indeed a prince of the warrior caste (and at the time the warrior caste was at odds with the sages caste because the latter had already experienced degeneration) but when he became Buddha (The Awakened One) he transcended and his teachings are essentially the Right Hand path to transcendence (although in my more recent readings I discovered that one of the phases to transcendence in the teachings does have an alternative that in its nature is reminiscent of the Left Hand path).

 

On the subject of vocations, while the 4 castes divide our general spiritual nature, in temporal affairs people of each caste enjoyed an array of vocations in a structure of corporatism, which has little to do with what we understand as corporatism today. Originally it was more like an existence of various guilds dedicated to a singular vocation, and each such guild had its own pantheons of Heroes and a patron God, their structure was militant, their relationship was that of an army but their focus was in their vocation. The degenerate version of this would be labor unions.

 

"common activity provide a bond and an order same way as blood and ritual provided those for higher castes that didn't engage in such activities, the guilds/corporations are like unions of vocation as opposed to profession, it is people with a certain calling gathered together in an almost religious institution that worshiped the "demon" of their vocation and a cult of the dead i.e. heroes of said vocation that represented the ideal bond between members of the given vocation (cults of divine/legendary patrons for each vocation)"

 

"their members were bonded together "for life" more as in a common rite than on the basis of the economic interests and mere productive goals"