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Zionism and National Socialism

58 posts in this topic

This subject has been briefly touched upon in the forums on several occasions. However, I would like to formally review it here.

The topic of this post concerns the relationship between the Zionist Organization of the 19th and early 20th century, and National Socialism under Hitler.

This story begins in the middle part of the 19th century.

Moses Hess, a Jewish socialist thinker, first coined the term "National Socialism" in 1862. Where Karl Marx would later view socialism as class struggle, and a struggle with capitalists and the bourgeoisie, Hess understood the struggle of nationalities and race. When Hess said "National Socialism," he applied it to the question of Jewish ethnic nationalism. Initially, there was some mutual understanding, but these different views led to the departure of Hess from Marx in terms of belief. When Marx's socialism became more international and class centric, Hess's was nationalistic and racialist. Hess's beliefs were a foundation of National Socialism, and Marx's became a foundation of Communism. Incidentally, Hess was not just a socialist but also a founder of 19th century Zionism --in addition to Theodor Herzl and Leon Pinsker.

Zionism was not popular among many Jews for the better part of the 19th century. But beginning in the 1880s, Russian Jews began to leave Russia, foreseeing that integration was not only not possible but undesirable. And thus from 1880 to 1914, over 60.000 Jews (mainly Russian) entered Ottoman Palestine. This raised the total Jewish population to 90.000. Jerusalem, prior to 1880 and for a very long amount of time, had a majority Jewish population. But after the 1880 influx the population of Jerusalem grew, and Jews began to establish settlements in the desert and swamp land. Tel Aviv was founded in 1909, and settlements were built along the coast and the largely uninhabitable Judaea region between Tel Aviv and the Dead Sea, and between Haifa and Galilee. By 1914, 18 Russian Jewish settlements were founded and 35 or so other settlements had a majority Russian Jewish population.

Meanwhile in Europe, in 1897 delegates were sent to the first Zionist Congress. Of the 159 delegates, 55 were from Russia and 30 were Russian born. Among other things, a rift grew in the Zionist Congress between German and Russian Jews. Many Russian Jews began to adopt Herzl Zionism and many advocated establishing Bolshevism in Palestine. However, ideas of Jewish Zionist Socialism had developed differently for the opposite group of Zionists. Both agreed, however, that the insistence of Jews in Europe to assimilate would not help the creation of any state. Therefore, it became a goal of the Zionist Congress to devise a way to bring Jews to Palestine.

Under Ottoman rule, Jewish immigration began to be restricted by Turks, and especially so during WWI. Following the British conquest of Syria (and its division into British Mandate Palestine and French Mandate Syria), this Arab nationalist view emerged:

"We Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement... We will wish the Jews a hearty welcome home... We are working together for a reformed and revised Near East, and our two movements complement one another. The movement is national and not imperialistic. There is room in Syria for us both. Indeed, I think neither can be successful without the other."

-Emir Feisal (father of pan Arabism, descendant of Muhammad) to Felix Frankfurter, 3 March 1919.

The British Mandate of Palestine was cut along the Jordan river in 1921. Palestine east of the Jordan river was referred to as "Transjordan" and it was closed to Jewish settlement. The present day area of the Golan was ceded by Britain to the French Mandate of Syria in 1923. The process of now bringing Jews to the mandate became a necessity.

The rise of National Socialism in Germany:

Dietrich Bronder in Bevor Hitler Kam demonstrates how Hitler was financed by Jews to bring him to power. Support for what was ultimately Aryan zionism was widespread among the members of the Zionist Congress and the Zionist Organization. This same Zionist Congress voted in favour of Hitler, by 240 to 43. Zionist leader Georg Kareski was also supportive of Nuremburg laws. And he gave his support in Der Angriff, in a 23 December 1935 interview.

Previously, Göbbels newspaper had published concerning the "jüdischer faschist." Related to Leopold von Wildenstein's visit to Palestine. The flag depicting the Star of David became the only flag allowed to fly alongside the flag depicting the Swastika. In May 1935 of Das Schwarzkopf, the SS became openly Zionist as well.

8065453427_0d15ca8449.jpg

But the causes for this are earlier.

The rise of the Anti Semitic Party in early 20th century Germany offered a solution to Zionism. The problem was that anti semitism was marginalized. Very early, Zionists recognized the need to use "anti semitism" in the goal of relocating Jews to Palestine. The collaboration of the Zionists with the National Socialists then allowed many Jews to change their papers to Aryan documents.

(Bevor Hitler Kam) Heinrich Himmler, Josef Göbbels, Wilhelm Canaris, and Alfred Rosenberg were examples of people with Jewish heritage who were afforded the opportunity to change their papers to suggest they only had Aryan ancestry. Rosenberg was influenced in his racialism by the Talmud, and Göbbels wife was raised by a Jewish family.

Deputy chancellor of the Reich, Rudolf Hess, was born in Egypt to a Jewish mother. Julius Streicher, editor of Der Sturmer, was a Jew. During the Nuremburg trials he said, "Our model was the Jewish law." At these trials, his real name (Abraham Goldberg) was also publicized. Labour Minister Robert Ley was Jewish. Reinhard Heydrich had Jewish ancestry on his mother's family. Albrecht Haushofer was a Jew in the German foreign ministry. Hitler's wife, Eva Braun was half Jewish and had been introduced to Hitler by the half Jew Heinrich Hoffman. SS officer Adolf Eichmann had Jewish ancestry. SS generals Odilo Globocnik and Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski were also.

What is interesting is not that the NSDAP was occupied by many Jews, but that anti semitism became a tool of Zionism.

In 1933, Hitler and the Zionist Organization signed an agreement for the emigration of Jews to Palestine. (The movement which was overseen by Adolf Eichman, and other National Socialist visitors to Palestine). In 1934, 120.000 German Jews had emigrated. By 1940, 500.000 German Jews had emigrated. However, many Jews continued to emigrate within Europe rather than move to Palestine.

Based on non anti-nazi propaganda Ingrid Weckert found in archives, unknown people who claimed to be party leaders started destroying synagogues 7 November 1938. There were no orders given by the real heads of the NSDAP, because they were celebrating the 1923 Munich Coup. Those responsible for Kristallnacht were not even real members of the NSDAP.

When news of Kristallnacht began, SA commander Viktor Lutze ordered Jewish property should not be damaged, and warned of SA intervention to protect Jewish property. Evidence shows SA members began to guard Jewish shops that had been vandalized. The SS and the police soon restored law and order.

Heinrich Himmler had Reinhard Hydrich end the demonstrations and protect the Jews. At 1 am, Hitler was informed. He ordered the demonstrations to be stopped. At 3 am Hitler sent an order that read, "From the highest authority: Arson or assault on Jewish shops or other Jewish property must not occur under any circumstances."

9 November: Göbbels came on the radio and ordered a stop to violence against Jews. This is documented. Ingrid Weckert shows that the Jewish B'nai B'rit group later was responsible for the Kristallnacht attack. The goal was to encourage emmigration of Jews to Palestine. The National Center for Jewish Emigration was formed after Kristallnacht.

However, the National Socialists were not the only ones to support Zionism explicitly. The Zionists naturally supported the National Socialists even without regards to the positive settlement of Jews in Palestine or the Talmudic supportive Nuremburg laws. Mussolini established squadrons of the Revisionist Zionist youth. The Beitar are modeled after the SS. Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel, was a member of Beitar and Stern Gang. His uniform reflected this, and among his comrades, he would give the fascist salute. Before the collapse of Germany, it was hoped for a future between Zionists, Fascists, and National Socialists.

Atlas of Jewish History, 1969/1992 Martin Gilbert

Rom und Jerusalem, die Letzte Nationalitätsfrage 1862 Moses Hess

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n2p14_Irving.html

The Iron Wall 1984 Leni Brenner

Bevor Hitler Kam: Eine Historische Studie, 1975 Dietrich Bronder

Feuerzeichen: Die Reichskristallnacht, 1981 Ingrid Weckert

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n1p-2_Irving.html

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Nazi Germany… just another Jewish conspiracy.

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I do NOT believe Joseph Goebbels, Streicher (!), Himmler etc were 'Jewish'! It's just as ludicrous as those who tell us Hitler himself was a Jew, because his grandmother was called 'Shicklgruber'! However...the book 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers: The Untold Story of Nazi Racial Laws and Men of Jewish Descent in the German Military' by Bryan Mark Rigg is an interesting read. The NSDAP Race Laws forbade intermarriage between Germans and Jews to preserve the Aryan Race.

It is true that some Zionists collaborated with the Nazis because they thought that anti-Semitism in the Reich and the policy of 'Germany for the Germans', would lead to a Jewish State in Palestine. Adolf Eichmann had negotiated with Jewish leaders to try to ensure Jewish resettlement outside Germany. After the War the Zionists condemned German National Socialism and the alleged 'Holocaust', and Eichmann was kidnapped and executed in the new State of Israel.

I agree with the policy of Oswald Mosley, Leader of the British Union of Fascists and National Socialists who supported a State for the Arabs in Palestine within the British Empire and a Homeland for the Jews somewhere in the World, which would not displace native peoples.

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It's just as ludicrous as those who tell us Hitler himself was a Jew, because his father was called Shicklegruber!

Shicklegruber = shekel grabber. If that's not Jewish I don't know what is.

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Shicklegruber = shekel grabber. If that's not Jewish I don't know what is.

"Hitler's father Alois Hitler was the illegitimate child of Maria Anna Schicklgruber. It was not until 1876 that Alois was legitimated and the baptismal register changed by a priest before three witnesses...Historians doubt the claim that Alois was Jewish." (Wikipedia)

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Nazi Germany… just another Jewish conspiracy.

Many 19th century thinkers considered Aryanism and Aryans the Jewish counterpart. So perhaps an alliance and not a conspiracy.

I do NOT believe[/Quote]

This is well documented by several historians. David Irving, Bryan Rigg. Dietrich Bronder also, given his access to many NSDAP documents from before 1933.

It is not something that requires belief.

Joseph Goebbels[/Quote]

Was called "rabbi" in school. His first girlfriend was Jewish. He defended Jews before in his correspondences. His papers were also changed to reflect Aryanism.

But a new myth and belief was being created. So what was done was necessary for the Aryan mythos. As the Judaic mythos was necesary for Zionism.

Streicher (!)[/Quote]

That Abraham Goldberg was Jewish is not debatable.

Himmler etc were 'Jewish'! It's just as ludicrous as those who tell us Hitler himself was a Jew, because his grandmother was called 'Shicklegruber'![/Quote]

Hitler was not Jewish. However, there existed some evidence that his lawyer and friend (Hans Frank) was Jewish. Hitler would go to a Czech mystic seer who was also Jewish.

Hitler's parents were probably not Jewish. However, Hitler's father remarried and there is some discussion that Angela Hitler she was half Jewish. http://en.wikipedia....i/Angela_Hitler

After WWI she moved to Vienna and became a manager of a boarding house for Jewish students --Mensa Academia Judaica. Angela was mentioned by Hitler in Mein Kampf.

Also, although Hitler was not Jewish, Eva Braun was.

However...the book 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers: The Untold Story of Nazi Racial Laws and Men of Jewish Descent in the German Military' by Bryan Mark Rigg is an interesting read. The NSDAP Race Laws forbade intermarriage between Germans and Jews to preserve the Aryan Race.[/Quote]

Or was it to preserve the Jewish race? Zionists disliked the intermarriage equally as much. And Zionists were discussing that they did not like intermarriage years before German National Socialism.

Ironically, this did not stop Hitler from marrying a Jew. Although Zionists, possibly like Hitler, believed there was a conversion process. An Aryan could be Jewish in the way Hitler could declare Jews "Aryan."

Ultimately, who was and was not Aryan began with Hitler. Hitler declared many Jews to be Aryan. In his knowledge, (that we know of) 10 generals and two generalfeldmarschall were Jewish. They were in charge of substantial amounts of troops.

Hitler declared them Aryan.

A further 160.000 soldiers in the Wehrmacht were Jewish or Mischlinge (the more famous German "Helmut Schmidt" was a Jew and a veteran of Leningrad. He was captured by the British and received the Eisernes Kreuz). The decision on Aryanism was Hitler's decision. Arguably, despite his wife's ancestry and the ancestry of many high ranking National Socialists, they were considered Aryan. Because Aryanism could be determined through faith, on some level.

Possibly, this has to due with Rosenberg's Talmudic beliefs. He believed in the Aryan soul as much as genes. Or rather, that the soul was just as powerful. (Similar to the Talmudic Jewish belief in distinctions between animal and super souls, and the effect of one's soul on genes).

I think there was a belief that a soul changed a person's genetics, similar to some Talmudic views.

It is true that some Zionists collaborated with the Nazis because they thought that anti-Semitism in the Reich and the policy of 'Germany for the Germans', would lead to a Jewish State in Palestine.[/Quote]

Rather, they encouraged this anti semitism. Kristallnacht is absolute evidence of this.

Adolf Eichmann had negotiated with Jewish leaders to try to ensure Jewish resettlement outside Germany. After the War the Zionists condemned German National Socialism and the alleged 'Holocaust', and Eichmann was kidnapped and executed in the new State of Israel.[/Quote]

Of course. The allies had won. Conform or lose your head. Many National Socialists in addition to Zionists began to work for the enemy. Former National Socialists worked with both the Russians and the Americans. Zionists are not the only ones.

The fact remains though, Adolf Eichmann is not the only Jew to be killed by later Zionist leaders. And naturally, demonizing National Socialism after its defeat would help to support a history of Holocaust ideology.

The actual NS ideologies of Moses Hess were never really abandoned in Zionism though. Currently, Zionism is ready for a revisionist re awakening, as it has been momentarily subjected to liberalism. National Socialism is also ripe for a return.

I agree with the policy of Oswald Mosley, Leader of the British Union of Fascists and National Socialists who supported a State for the Arabs in Palestine[/Quote]

Technically Jordan is Palestine. The British did the same thing with Palestine that they did with India. They divided Palestine into Transjordan (now Jordan) and Palestine. As they later divided India into India and Pakistan/East Pakistan.

They told the Muslims to go to Pakistan/East Pakistan(now Bangladesh), and the Hindus to leave Pakistani areas and go to India. With Palestine, they wanted Palestine to be for Jews and Transjordan for Muslims.

The Islamic homeland in Palestine is still there, it is merely on the eastern side of the Jordan river.

Frankly, Muslims have homelands all over the planet... So I naturally do lack some sympathy for another random Islamic homeland. Pakistanis did not ask for homelands in India.

which would not displace native peoples.

Aside from the fact Arabs are not indigenous to Palestine, but rather the Arabian peninsula...

It is unlikely Hitler cared about the Jordanian/Palestinian's claim to (western) Palestine when Himmler, Eichmann, and himself sent approximately half a million Jews there.

Adolf Hitler: Founder of Israel, 1996 Hennecke Kardel

I think it is misunderstood just how deep this friendship truly was. Aryanism is racist, but likely no more racist than parts of the Talmud or the Torah. For what Rosenberg wanted (the disappearance of Christianity and the placement of an Aryan nationalist religion), this would be a non-Jewish equivalent of Zionism.

Naturally, this garnered a large amount of respect from many in the Zionist Organization.

I disagree with them on the Christian point, however.

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I don't believe Hitler would have married a Jewess, given his opposition to mixed marriages. I don't think Eva Braun was Jewish she was classed as Aryan. Hitler took great pains to research his family tree, after the Jewish controlled newspapers in Germany spread the tall tale of his Jewish ancestry to try and discredit him, before his rise to power. The SS investigation concluded the Fuhrer was Aryan.

It is certainly good if Jews do not mix with us and vice versa, which will preserve both the Aryan and the Jewish races.

Der Lowe... is your avatar symbol based on the Raelian Movement alleged 'UFO cult' which also uses a Swastika and a Star of David?

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I don't believe Hitler would have married a Jewess, given his opposition to mixed marriages. I don't think Eva Braun was Jewish she was classed as Aryan. Hitler took great pains to research his family tree, after the Jewish controlled newspapers in Germany spread the tall tale of his Jewish ancestry to try and discredit him, before his rise to power. The SS investigation concluded the Fuhrer was Aryan.[/Quote]

Yes, Hitler was Aryan.

Hitler was also often anti semitic as a display to the public.

That Hitler considered the half-jew Eva Braun Aryan is likely. There is more to Zionism and Aryanism than mere ancestry. Indeed at least in many instances, if you looked Aryan, you were Aryan. Or at least you could be declared Aryan.

Or sometimes even if you did not.

Here is a picture of a rather non-Aryan appearing Wehrmacht recruit, Horst Geitner:

righitgeitner.jpg

It is certainly good if Jews do not mix with us and vice versa, which will preserve both the Aryan and the Jewish races.[/Quote]

Certainly, I do not believe that either Aryan cultural heritage or Jewish cultural heritage should perish...

Although I can not speak specifically on this for all cases because I would be classified as Mischlinge in the NSDAP. I believe that where the line between the two is not defined, the "spiritual" approach should be taken to determine one or the other.

Der Lowe... is your avatar based on the Raelian Movement 'UFO cult' which uses a Swastika and a Star of David?

Complicated.

Firstly, the Star of David and the Swastika are both Indo European Aryan symbols. Technically.

The Shatkona represents the union of masculine and feminine. It is represented by two triangles pointing in opposite directions. The Swastika is a sun symbol.

Hindu usage of both predates either (Germanic) Aryan or Jewish usage of either.

To me, what this means, is it is merely the combination of two very similar concepts (culturally, "mythically," and ideologically), into one.

8067649609_998a879dc2.jpg

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I do not think that anybody here should be surprised by the notion that Zionism IS National Socialism, adapted to fit the Jewish folk.

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I do not think that anybody here should be surprised by the notion that Zionism IS National Socialism, adapted to fit the Jewish folk.

That would be denying National-Socialism as a worked out ideology with its own economic and political systems, values and ethics. Indeed Zionism can be seen in a etno-nationalist context and knows some oppurtunist connections (zionism as a possible solution for the Jewish question) with Nazism but that's where the comparison with National-Socialism pretty much ends. As for the reference to Hes, National-Socialism as a term does know a long tradition in (non-marxist) utopian socialist circles (in which Jewish theorists can also be found), but this is by no means exactly the same ideology the NSDAP realized since its foundation. The accusation of Hitlerism being a Zionist plot is quite exorbitant, it must be admitted that the Nazi's where not very consequent in their application of the racial laws and Jews where kept in NSDAP ranks, but outside the existance of a Zionist lobby, that is about all there is to it: National-Socialism was and is a German manifestation!

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Theodor Herzl was originally a German/Austrian Nationalist that wanted Jews to integrate. But that would not happen so he though Jews should have their own state. If it was up to him the state would have been secular, socialistic and German-speaking. I really like early Zionism, it is more so European then Jewish. It is proto-NS. If he could see modern Israel he would roll in his grave.

If the Jews had become culturally European I would support them over the Arabs/Palestinians. Sadly that will not happen. I lean towards supporting Arabs as I hate them slightly less then Jews. The problem is Arabs are shitty fighters. They outnumber the Jews they outunumber the Israelis yet have not managed to holocaust them. Jews are not even difficult to holocaust. Millions(I put the holocaust at about 1-3 million) died in the war and barely put up a fight.

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yet have not managed to holocaust them. Jews are not even difficult to holocaust.

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The collaboration of the Zionists with the National Socialists then allowed many Jews to change their papers to Aryan documents. (Bevor Hitler Kam) Heinrich Himmler, Josef Göbbels, Wilhelm Canaris, and Alfred Rosenberg were examples of people with Jewish heritage who were afforded the opportunity to change their papers to suggest they only had Aryan ancestry. Rosenberg was influenced in his racialism by the Talmud, and Göbbels wife was raised by a Jewish family. Deputy chancellor of the Reich, Rudolf Hess, was born in Egypt to a Jewish mother. Julius Streicher, editor of Der Sturmer, was a Jew. During the Nuremburg trials he said, "Our model was the Jewish law." At these trials, his real name (Abraham Goldberg) was also publicized. Labour Minister Robert Ley was Jewish. Reinhard Heydrich had Jewish ancestry on his mother's family. Albrecht Haushofer was a Jew in the German foreign ministry. Hitler's wife, Eva Braun was half Jewish and had been introduced to Hitler by the half Jew Heinrich Hoffman. SS officer Adolf Eichmann had Jewish ancestry. SS generals Odilo Globocnik and Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski were also.

Are we expected to take this seriously? Because anybody who knows anything about this topic knows that you are putting this way out of context. You're making leaps and bounds and trying to force pieces of a puzzle that simply do not fit together. These people where not Jews no matter how much you wish they were like you, the honest truth is they are not and they never will be.

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Are we expected to take this seriously? Because anybody who knows anything about this topic knows that you are putting this way out of context. You're making leaps and bounds and trying to force pieces of a puzzle that simply do not fit together. These people where not Jews no matter how much you wish they were like you, the honest truth is they are not and they never will be.[/Quote]

As before stated, they were Aryan even if they had Jewish heritage.

"I decide who is Jew and who is Aryan"

-Hermann Göring

Honestly, you are not a historian. I am prepared to trust real people who "knows anything about this topic" over an unsubstantiated opinion.

Theodor Herzl was originally a German/Austrian Nationalist that wanted Jews to integrate. But that would not happen so he though Jews should have their own state. If it was up to him the state would have been secular, socialistic and German-speaking. I really like early Zionism, it is more so European then Jewish. It is proto-NS. If he could see modern Israel he would roll in his grave.[/Quote]

I touched on the Russian and German divide, but I did not explain enough.

Russian Zionists viewed the pogroms as a positive thing. They began to adopt a later Herzl view of not integrating and instead moving to Palestine.

With the increase of the pogroms and the Tsar's anti Jewish tendencies it led many Russian Jews to Bolshevism (they were anti imperialist, and the Tsar oppressed many people, not just Jews, and I think many Jewish Bolsheviks new this) as well as the eastern branch of Zionism. The eastern Zionist view was very influential, as indicated by their numbers in the Zionist Congress.

They advocated all Zionists adopting the Russian view that anti semitism was a positive factor in emigration to Palestine, as evidenced by the massive 1880 Russian emigration.

German Jews were more likely to integrate. In fact, many of the German Jews who would later be targeted were practicing Protestants or Catholics. This posed a problem for the Zionist Congress, which supported the idea with National Socialism that these Christians were Jews whether they realized it or not.

In terms of actual differences, Russian Jews had never really integrated the same as Germans. While Germans (I include Austria...) had produced Jewish scientists like Freud, father of psychology, Otto Weininger. Much of early racialist thought was from German Jews.

The Russian Jews who were most influential moreover, were Russians who moved west to Germany and could be scientifically or mathematically productive there.

The only eastern European Jews I can think of that were influential in science were ones that were born in America from Eastern European immigrants. People like Stanley Milgram, landmark sociologist.

The Russians also could not agree with the Germans on a language. Germans in the Zionist Congress wanted Jiddisch or German. Russians thought these were "goy" languages (although, many German Jews did not see a problem with this) and wanted Hebrew.

So you are correct in that the current language in Israel does reflect Russian influence.

Ultimately, because the Russians started to colonize Israel first-- It of course would reflect their specific Zionist values. When Germans started to arrive, Hebrew was already strong in many circles and Jiddisch or German were not preferred.

I personally am partial to the 1890s German Zionists. But I like the Russians also, and I do not really have a problem with Hebrew. It has a nice history as one of the oldest existing phonetic alphabets, as a direct branch from the Phoenician alphabet (who invented phonetic alphabets, thus why we call them "phonetic").

Adolf Eichmann wanted to learn Hebrew, and if Hebrew was good for Eichmann I do not see the problem. I do think that Jiddisch should be revived in Israel though.

People say "when in Rome do as the Romans/Andere Länder, andere Sitten" in regard to the need for lingual singularity. But in the Roman Empire, they spoke both Latin and Greek.

National-Socialism was and is a German manifestation!

Yes. That was pro Zionist.

If you have not yet, read on the Nuremberg trials, it is enlightening.

Also, Rosenberg could be considered an Aryan Talmudist.

As to the other things... National Socialism remains German and was German before. But I say that because I consider Moses Hess German (although not Aryan? Unless Hitler would declare him Aryan). His foundation that Race/Nationality is Class, and economic class warfare is not realistic.

If the Jews had become culturally European I would support them over the Arabs/Palestinians.[/Quote]

Yes, because the Arabs are indeed more European. As we are all aware.

But really, why can not western Jordanians just move to East Palestine? I do not see Pakistanis complaining today about leaving India (as many did), so what is wrong with Palestinians? And why do they have a monopoly on "displacement butthurt"? I will criticize them the same I criticize many Jews.

Sadly that will not happen. I lean towards supporting Arabs as I hate them slightly less then Jews. The problem is Arabs are shitty fighters. They outnumber the Jews they outunumber the Israelis yet have not managed to holocaust them. Jews are not even difficult to holocaust. Millions(I put the holocaust at about 1-3 million) died in the war and barely put up a fight.

That is honestly incorrect.

It is not logistically possible for many of the high numbers that died to have died.

We can also attribute many of the casualties to typhus.

However, that there was slave labour was obviously not to be denied (although, there were concentration camp guards who were Jewish). And that slaves lived in poor conditions is also not deniable. That systematic extermination was the original or always the goal is not particularly certain. However, Jews do not have a monopoly on being used as slave military labour because the Poles and Czech were used also. Indeed, many of the enslaved Jews were Polish/Czech.

As for Polish ghettos, which were more prevalent than camps, Jews did fight back. All the time. I do not begrudge them for fighting against an occupying force. If I were Polish, I would probably fight Germans alongside them. Polish nationalism or will to survive is not wrong...

Also, you have fallen victim to another form of propaganda. What disturbs me the most about "the Holocaust" is that many people suffered in WWII, and most of them were not Jews at all. The German people suffered and Eastern Europeans suffered. Dresden was a true Holocaust (in the sense that Latin "caust" means "burn"). Tens of millions suffered in the war, and you can hardly say victims of WWII were Jews. That is just an example of Jewish monopoly on WWII. And it blinds people to the casualties everywhere. The German, Polish, and Russian people.

Honestly, I am not interested in reading anything more about the Jewish Holocaust. If only "3 million" Jews were "easily" Holocausted anyway then that makes Jews very fortunate. Because over 50 million civilians died in that war. Germany lost Prussia, many lives, Stadtschloss, Dresden (which was architecturally and artistically beautiful. The most beautiful city in the world many had said). And looting of places like Sanssouci.

I first read something similar to that, but not on a blog. Possibly the author of that blog derived inspiration from a similar source (it seems very similar, actually). Some of it is wrong also. For example, Bevor Hitler Kam is not banned in Germany. Neither is Hitler: Founder of Israel nonexistent.

Some of that blog is verbatim from the books I sited though. And suspiciously verbatim of something else I once read...

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I like this thread. Not because I am a philosemitic National Socialist, not because I am an antisemitic Hitler-hater, not even because it would be an interesting historical fact - it is not of course, it seems to consist mainly of bullshit with some bits of truth scattered here and there (like quite a lot of sources about NS Germany). I like it because it has huge potential to make stormfags or other dumbass pseudonazis (especially the American ones, they seem to be the most dedicated internet-"NS") cry. I seriously suggest you post it in spermfront's "Revisionism" subforum, just for shits and giggles.

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Der Lowe, you are a German Jew and I have no problem with that, I quite respect you, to be honest, and I also could not care less if what you are saying is true or not(I highly doubt that it is, though.) But just because you are a Jew, it doesn't mean that you must transform the Third Reich into the Juden Reich. You are a German and an Atheist, so stop trying to be Kosher and justifying National Socialism from a Jewish perspective.

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But just because you are a Jew, it doesn't mean that you must transform the Third Reich into the Juden Reich.

Have you never noticed how Jews are expelled from pretty much everywhere they go? In a strong National Socialist Germany, it would have to be an expulsion by fire. It is the nature of the German (beyond that - the gentile) to hate the Jew. An ideology that venerated and was supposedly based around Judaism would be the only way for the Kikes to survive.

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Der Lowe, you are a German Jew and I have no problem with that, I quite respect you, to be honest, and I also could not care less if what you are saying is true or not(I highly doubt that it is, though.) But just because you are a Jew, it doesn't mean that you must transform the Third Reich into the Juden Reich. You are a German and an Atheist, so stop trying to be Kosher and justifying National Socialism from a Jewish perspective.

Is 'Bevor Hitler Kam' the book written by Rudolf Von Sebottendorf, the founder of the Thule Society, which Rudolf Hess was a member of?

http://www.crystalinks.com/thule.html

[/Quote]

Preuße, I wish I could claim credit for the inventions of what I have said but I can not. If you do not like historical review, then by all means ignore what does not agree with your beliefs. I am not justifying National Socialism from a Jewish perspective. I am recognizing the blatant fact that it is Aryan Zionism. There is also a difference between Zionism and being Jewish, just as there is a difference between being Aryan and being National Socialist. Yes I am essentially atheist, but I am still a Zionist and I still support National Socialism. It has absolutely nothing to do with Keshrut. Rather, it is a historical example of ideological solidarity.

Blackshirt, the one I use is the one that is NSDAP/and other documents subjected to historical review by Dietrich Bronder.

I do not recommend buying it necessarily. But it is available as a Torrent download, here.

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Yes. That was pro Zionist.

Only pro-Zionist if Zionism could be a mean of solving the Jewish question in Germany. This Zionism was certainly not by definition the expulsion of the Jews to Israel, but also other regions such as Madagascar where considered. Also there where many opponents within the ranks of National-Socialist theorists against Zionism, because these argued that international Jewry could not be solved by simply moving the Jews to their "own" nation. Some of these theorists already predicted Jewish immigration to Palestine would lead to conflict with Islamic allies in the region (like Mufti Amin Machmoud Haj al-Hoesseini). So National-Socialism was not by definition pro-Zionists, simply some National-Socialist theorists speculated with the idea of Zionism to solve the Jewish question - a question that dominated Nazi politics.

Also, Rosenberg could be considered an Aryan Talmudist.

I disagree.

To start with Rosenberg did not reffer to "the Aryan", but was more specific and reffered to the "Nordic race". Furthermore Rosenberg did not mean race in a antropological sense, the National-Socialists who build on his ideas (and those of others) did mean race in a antropological sense. To Rosenberg it was about "achievements" if it came to the Aryan race, the National-Socialist meant it in a antropological - racial - sense. It must be admitted that the National-Socialist had problems with administering their pseudo-scientific and in many occasions contradicting racial theories, so they where not always consequent if it came to their racial policy. In some cases NSDAP offcials oppurtunistic reffered indeed to Rosenberg his interpretation if it was of use, but this must also be seen in the context of the evolution of racial theory and the problems with administering it in practice. The National-Socialist racial doctrine developed and changed throughout its existance.

What the Talmud got to do with it is a complete mystery to me and also the link with zionism is based on next to nothing. Great stuff for conspiracy theorists though... :D

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Only pro-Zionist if Zionism could be a mean of solving the Jewish question in Germany.[/Quote]

A question which Zionists believed in. Zionists did not want Jews there, if you do not believe me, I can site Theodor Herzl in Der Judenstaat.

This Zionism was certainly not by definition the expulsion iof the Jews to Israel[/Quote]

What have you actually read on the subject? Also, many of the Jews went willingly.

but also other regions such as Madagascar where considered.[/Quote]

Yes. Which would have been much more expensive to go to than Palestine. Also, there was already a growing Jewish presence in Palestine before anyone considered Madagascar. Madagascar consideration was merely an untenable footnote. In order for Madagascar to be viable, you would also have to move the Jews in Palestine to Madagascar. And there was no established Jewish presence in Madagascar. Jews, however, had lived in and around Jerusalem and a few other cities consistently since before the Crusades.

Also there where many opponents within the ranks of National-Socialist theorists against Zionism, because these argued that international Jewry could not be solved by simply moving the Jews to their "own" nation.[/Quote]

And they were usually refuted by the National Socialists that pointed out that international Jews were NOT usually Zionists. International Jews did not have a nation or a homeland--and thus why they were "international."

So National-Socialism was not by definition pro-Zionists[/Quote]

Well obviously National Socialism by definition has little to do with Jews. It is an anti Marxist economic and political system of nationalism firstly. I am merely discussing the nationalist part not the economic or political parts.

simply some National-Socialist theorists speculated with the idea of Zionism to solve the Jewish question.[/Quote]

And I am pointing out the historical fact that Zionists were just as interested in the idea of National Socialism to solve the Jewish question. Not only this, but Zionism had been considering things like this decades before National Socialism ever emerged in Germany.

To start with Rosenberg did not reffer to "the Aryan", but was more specific and reffered to the "Nordic race". [/Quote]

Nordic is Aryan. Recent revisionism has made "Aryan" apply to non-nordic people.

Furthermore Rosenberg did not mean race in a antropological sense[/Quote]

Neither did Talmudists, much of the time...

What the Talmud got to do with it is a complete mystery to me and also the link with zionism is based on next to nothing.

Other than Hitler and others essentially founding modern Israel.

When Jews went to Palestine, a certain amount of technology went with them. That allowed for building of infrastructure in Israel upon what the Russians had already established.

Aside from Hitler cooperating with the Zionist Organization, and the Nuremberg laws being as Zionist as they were National Socialist, it is a fact that organizations against anti semitism were a driving force in German anti semitism. The B'nai B'rit or Ligue International Contre l'Antisemitisme were not only responsible for Kristallnacht.

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What have you actually read on the subject? Also, many of the Jews went willingly.

I had read some documents of some National-Socialists theorists on the Jewish question. I will try to find them back so I can post it here.

Yes. Which would have been much more expensive to go to than Palestine. Also, there was already a growing Jewish presence in Palestine before anyone considered Madagascar. Madagascar consideration was merely an untenable footnote. In order for Madagascar to be viable, you would also have to move the Jews in Palestine to Madagascar.

Doesn't matter it simply shows the National-Socialist had their own motives for Zionism that where not by definition the same as the motives for Jews. It was seen as a solution for Germany by the National-Socialists, not for the Jews.

And they were usually refuted by the National Socialists that pointed out that international Jews were NOT usually Zionists. International Jews did not have a nation or a homeland--and thus why they were "international."

National-Socialists opposed Jews, them being Zionist or not-Zionist didn't really matter to them. Anyone who read any National-Socialist literature about Jewry must acknowledge this.

And I am pointing out the historical fact that Zionists were just as interested in the idea of National Socialism to solve the Jewish question. Not only this, but Zionism had been considering things like this decades before National Socialism ever emerged in Germany.

Ofcourse there was a oppurtunistic interest in National-Socialism by Zionists, just as National-Socialists considered Zionism as a oppurtunistic mean to expulse Jews from Germany. But there was no ideological or ethical connection. Zionists where not the only ones who had pre-National-Socialist ethno-nationalist ideas. The ideas that are rooted in National-Socialism can be traced back to the German "Sturm und Drang" period and the Romanticism that originates from the 18th and 19th century (probably also inspiring German zionists).

Nordic is Aryan. Recent revisionism has made "Aryan" apply to non-nordic people.

Aryan has had many different definitions, even during the early days of the Conservative revolution and antroposofism. So its just a question of your personal definition cinsidering there is no real consensus on the term.

Other than Hitler and others essentially founding modern Israel.

Yes by loosing the war, which certainly was not Hitler his intention, nor was the creation of modern Israel.

Aside from Hitler cooperating with the Zionist Organization, and the Nuremberg laws being as Zionist as they were National Socialist, it is a fact that organizations against anti semitism were a driving force in German anti semitism. The B'nai B'rit or Ligue International Contre l'Antisemitisme were not only responsible for Kristallnacht.

Yes indeed a Zionist lobby existed in Germany, but you are grossly exaggerating their power and influence on the National-Socialists. The driving forces behind German antisemitism was its Lutheranist tradition and the National-Socialist propaganda that used these antisemitic sentiments for political ends.

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Two dossiers regarding National-Socialist support for Zionism and their views on this question.

Dr. Johann von Leers: Das Ende der Jüdischen Wanderung (1933)

Some conclusions from this “pro-Zionist” article:

The Jewish problem is a migrating problem that has moved over the centuries from one European region to another. The first step is a clear realization that the Jews are a foreign element. No one who understands the situation will be able to deny that the cause of these defensive measures lies primarily in the Jewish people itself. Even with the greatest degree of impartiality, one will conclude that one is dealing with a group of people that is on average highly unpleasant. It is questionable to even speak of a “Jewish people,” since there is only a limited and widely varied sense of real consciousness of being a people. From century to century, Europe has always had outbursts of anti-Semitism, and from good and justified desires to defend non-Jewish peoples against an indigestible Jewry. We cannot, therefore, be satisfied with a solution that simply moves the Jews from one country to another over the centuries. This can only strengthen the dangerous Jewish ability to carry on its policies within states, building transnational power.

What gives some justification to Zionism’s goals is not that they are often either excessively romantic or a peculiar kind of advertising for its thinking, but rather its claim that there is a question with regards to a Jewish people, and that it must be resolved. Zionism assumes that it can build a new Jewish people from the many Jewish individuals. It has, however, some justice in demanding a territorial foundation for its development.

Palestine is unable to absorb the coming Jewish masses since it cannot support them, nor is it the right location. Furthermore, England has to consider both the native Arabic population and the world-wide Islamic community, which makes it impossible to settle even a reasonably significant part of the Jewish masses there.

The only imaginable, positive solution that will finally resolve the Jewish problem in Europe and at the same time provide the real possibility of becoming a people, of becoming rooted to land, and even perhaps allowing its less valuable elements to be influenced by the more valuable elements, is a healthy region outside Europe. The Dutchman von Dinghene, in his book Vollzionismus, has proposed the island of Madagascar, but one could also imagine certain other suitable African or South American regions.

Dr. Achim Gercke: Die Lösung der Judenfrage (1933)

Some conclusions from this “pro-Zionist” article:

Allowing free development and equality for the Jews has led to an “unfree” situation of exploited competition, and to a handing over of important positions within the German people to those of a foreign race. The legal measures that have just been issued by the government are cleansing actions that adroitly respond to Judah’s declaration of war. The entire people will be educated about the Jewish Question and will come to understand that a people’s community is a community of blood. For the first time, they will be reached by racial thinking and will be focused not on theoretical solutions to the Jewish Question, but rather on a real solution.

All proposals that include a permanent presence, a permanent regulation of the Jews in Germany, do not solve the Jewish Question, for they do not eliminate the Jews from Germany (denn sie lösen die Juden nicht von Deutschland). If the Jews are able to exploit their host peoples forever, they will remain a constant source of the open, destructive flame of Bolshevism, making it easy to repeatedly kindle it again, not to mention the political uncertainties resulting from disunity within the people and the danger to racial unity.

If we support Zionist plans and attempt an international solution by establishing a homeland for the Jews, we will be able to solve the Jewish Question not only in Germany, but in Europe and the entire world. The entire world has an interest in such a solution, on eliminating this source of disorder, which constantly proceeds from Bolshevism. We must establish that clearly.

Perhaps the Jews will be able to become a nation, a people. That would require that Jewish workers, craftsmen, and settlers would develop from the Jewish population. If we regulate this plan, they we will create new foundations for such a settlement. Scattering the Jews to the four winds does not solve the Jewish Question, but rather makes it worse. A systematic program of settlement, therefore, is the best solution. A better future demands the systematic solution of the Jewish Question, not the organization of the Jews.

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Doesn't matter it simply shows the National-Socialist had their own motives for Zionism[/Quote]

Apparently not. Madagascar was abandoned and thought never was put into it. National Socialists sent more ships to Palestine than they ever even stopped to expand the Madagascar possibility.

National-Socialists opposed Jews, them being Zionist or not-Zionist didn't really matter to them. Anyone who read any National-Socialist literature about Jewry must acknowledge this.[/Quote]

Of course, Jews funded National Socialism though.... This is not really a myth.

The ideas that are rooted in National-Socialism can be traced back to the German "Sturm und Drang" period and the Romanticism that originates from the 18th and 19th century (probably also inspiring German zionists).[/Quote]

Actually, false.

Sturm und drang was a liberalist movement that merely countered the enlightenment. It had nothing to do with nationalism, socialism, or racialism.

Yes by loosing the war, which certainly was not Hitler his intention, nor was the creation of modern Israel.[/Quote]

No, Hitler was doing it in the 1930s before the war even started. The creation of a Jewish state was ENTIRELY his intention, unless you believe Hitler was unconscious in his decision making.

Yes indeed a Zionist lobby existed in Germany, but you are grossly exaggerating their power and influence on the National-Socialists.[/Quote]

In my initial post, there are no exaggerations.

Zionists encouraged anti semitism in Europe before National Socialism in Germany.

The driving forces behind German antisemitism was its Lutheranist tradition and the National-Socialist propaganda that used these antisemitic sentiments for political ends.

That is interesting considering Rosenberg was anti-Christianity.

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